“Virtue is the only true good in life”. Interview with Gregory Lopez for Ukrainian stoics
In 2023, the The Stoic Fellowship offered our PSYSK community the opportunity to correspond with famous modern stoics, including Gregory Lopez. Thanks to this, we had the opportunity to communicate with Gregory in a question-and-answer format. In February, we collected more than 20 questions in the telegram channel and received answers to all of them within a week.
You can read the first part of the interview in Ukrainian here. The second part is here.
What stoic advice will be useful for people who have had a baby, especially for women who are struggling with postpartum depression without medication?
I tend not to give advice about specific situations, since each situation is different, so I’m afraid I cannot offer general advice here.
However, for depression, the Stoic advice is a little more clear. Stoicism works best when it’s practiced when things are going okay for you to prepare for tougher times. But Stoics back to Chryssippus recommended not practicing Stoicism when depression has taken hold of you, but to do whatever helps with the depression. Once things are better for you, you can then practice Stoicism to prepare for tougher times.
In today’s world, that means doing whatever you can find that helps with postpartum depression. That means try things that work in general and find something that works for you. Medicine helps with postpartum depression, but depression-focused therapy with a trained therapist can also be very effective. Exercise and massage have also shown some benefits.
So don’t worry about Stoicism for now. Take care of yourself, and come back to Stoicism when the depression is better!
Is it possible to combine Stoicism with Christianity? Even if we reduce Stoicism to practical advice, there is still a certain conflict with the texts of the Bible. The concepts of good and evil are also somewhat different.
That’s a tough question going back centuries, and I don’t have a firm answer. There was an attempt to combine Stoicism and Christianity in the 16th Century. The person at the forefront of this movement was Justus Lipsius, and the movement was called Neostoicism. You may want to look at that movement for advice. There is also a book by Kevin Vost called “The Porch and The Cross” that may help. The book is in English, though.
I encourage you to explore what past writers have said and attempt to answer the question for yourself!
Stoicism and War: How to keep calm, stay true to stoic virtues, and not lose faith in a better future in difficult times?
Keeping calm and staying true to the Stoic virtues go hand-in-hand: remember that the Stoics think fear and sorrow come from thinking external things are more valuable than your virtue. If you focus on virtue, calmness follows.
To focus more on virtue, remember what the virtues focus on:
- Practical wisdom: knowing the difference from what’s really valuable (your character) and what’s not as valuable (everything else). Asking yourself “how can I improve my character with this?” for every situation, whether pleasant or painful, can help you focus on how you can benefit in any situation, since your character is something you always carry with you. — Justice: treating people fairly. Ask yourself if you can be more fair every day, and if you see a time you’re unfair due to hard circumstances, try to correct yourself next time. If you see an injustice you can help try to correct, make an effort to do so. — Courage: this probably requires little explanation given the war, and you are quite likely more familiar with courage than I am! — Temperance: not overindulging. You can overindulge in many things, not just food and drink. You can also overindulge in hateful or unhelpful thoughts. If so, try to balance them.
By focusing on your character by trying your best to act according to virtue, you may be calmer and also work toward a better future… no faith needed! In short: focus on what’s up to you and the rest will follow.
Is it possible to completely eliminate negative emotions with the help of stoicism practices? (I read Aurelius — it works, but only partially and temporarily)
The Stoics are somewhat clear on this. The Stoics had a concept of the perfect Stoic called the sage. Only the sage has completely eliminated all negative emotions. And the Stoics claimed either that a sage has never existed or is very, very, very rare.
So to answer your question: probably not. But that doesn’t mean we can’t improve.
How did the Stoics perceive the Ego and how did they control it?
The Ego is something that comes from Sigmund Freud. The Stoics didn’t quite have a concept similar to the Ego, so they wouldn’t really speak to how to control it.
Some people have tried to equate the Stoic concept of the hegemonikon (“Ruling faculty”) to the Ego, but I don’t agree with that equation. Freudian psychology and Stoic psychology or two different, pretty incompatible theories.
There’s no way to control the hegemonikon in Stoicism, because you are your hegemonikon and the Stoics thought you had free will. So all your conscious actions are naturally a result of the hegemonikon.
But if by “ego” you just mean being full of yourself, a braggart, or being conceited, there are many exercises the Stoics had to deal with that. From intentionally refraining from talking about yourself to intentionally embarrassing yourself.
In Stoicism, the notion of the dichotomy of control is perhaps the most important among the other concepts of this philosophy. This is the starting point of your workshop book The New Stoics. Question: When a stressful situation occurs, understanding what is in my power and what is not is not enough for me to calm down. How can I start to develop this letting go of things that I don’t control? In my opinion, this can be done through a rational discussion with yourself using the CBT technique. What else do you think can be done to get real relief from the realization that you have no control?
Epictetus clearly diagnoses why people are not calm when in stressful situations: because they believe deep down that they will either endure something they think is bad, or lose something they think is good. But Stoicism states that the only good thing is virtue, and the only bad thing is vice. No one or no situation can ever take away your virtue or make you evil: it’s always up to you.
So any practice that helps to convince you deep down that virtue is the only real good in life can help.
I don’t know what specific practice can help you get real relief, though. One of the main assumptions of Massimo’s and my book is that not every exercise will work equally well for everyone; that’s why we give you a bunch of different ones to try and collect the best ones that work for you in particular in the appendix. I would suggest going to the appendix and trying out the exercises that are in the Discipline of Desire under aversion and try a few and see what works best for you!
Can the Stoic concept of the Logos be considered God?
Yes. The Stoics explicitly claimed that the Logos, God, Zeus, and providence were all one and the same.
What are the 3, 5 or 10 provisions of modern stoicism that can be the basis, the commandments? So that you can remind yourself of them every day and feel confident?
Having phrases to constantly tell yourself is a very important Stoic practice. I think it’s actually best for you to come up with your own, that way there are your own special phrases that work for you.
My favorite phrase I tell myself is “how can I sharpen my character on this?” It’s not a statement, but a question that prompts me to think of ways I can improve my character, whether it’s something fortunate or unfortunate that’s occurring. I suggest you come up with your own phrase that’s focused on one of the main Stoic principles. Here are 5 that I can think of off the top of my head:
- No one does evil intentionally; everyone is trying to do good, but they often don’t know what the good is!
- Virtue is the only good
- Be a good human being first (which means using reason and acting for the betterment of all when possible)
- Everything that goes on in the world and much of what goes on in your head is not up to you: only your goals, intentional thoughts and opinions, and what you want to physically do are up to you.
- The universe will do what it will regardless of whether you want it to happen or not.
How did you realize that Stoicism and philosophy are what you want to study? Did you consider other ancient philosophies?
I discovered Stoicism through its connection to the first form of cognitive behavioral therapy, called Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT). I was president of an organization in New York City that taught REBT to people with addictions. I had an interest in philosophy at the time, but didn’t think it was practical. But then I discovered that the founder of REBT was very influenced by Stoicism. I decided to learn more about it, and found people around the world were trying to practice Stoicism today. Because I appreciated logic and reason, the logical emphasis of REBT resonated with me.
However, before I discovered Stoicism, I practiced Buddhism, and I still practice it today. I think Stoicism allows me to be more active in the world, but find that Buddhism’s techniques fill a role that Stoicism cannot fill.
I’ve also read other ancient philosophies, but none really resonate with me. Taoism is somewhat interesting to me, and I have respect for the Epicureans as well. But I don’t think they’re a good fit for me.
Who is pop Stoicism aimed at? Is it possible to delve deeply into philosophy in this way? Is it enough to limit yourself to modern authors to improve your life?
It seems to me that pop Stoicism is aimed at people looking to solve a specific problem in their lives, like being more productive or resilient or overcoming anxiety. Non-pop Stoicism is also looking to solve a specific, but much larger problem: how to craft a worthwhile life. I suspect many people who are attracted to pop Stoicism think they know what a worthwhile life is (being successful, feeling happy, being wealthy, etc.), but are just having trouble achieving it. A Stoic, however, has to buy into what the Stoics taught was actuallya worthwhile life: a virtuous one.
I find that some people who are into pop Stoicism ultimately look to the full philosophy for something deeper, so pop Stoicism is a good “on-ramp” to Stoicism as a philosophy of life.
As for limiting yourself to modern authors, I think it depends on the author. I think there are a lot of modern writers who both understand Stoicism deeply and who offer ways to live a worthwhile life. I actually suggest most people start with modern authors because it’s very easy to misunderstand the ancient writers.
Stoics believed in dreams but did not believe in divination (Marcus Aurelius writes about this), do you know anything about this issue? How did they use what they dreamed of?
Marcus takes the traditional Greco-Roman religious view that the gods may speak to you through dreams, which is the opposite of the Epicurean view who thought that the gods were unconcerned with humans.
But I’m not sure I agree that the Stoics did not believe in divination. The Stoic theory of divination is laid out most clearly in Cicero’s On Divination. The Stoic argument for it is given in 1.82–83.
If the Stoics believed in the determinism of the Universe, how does this relate to our personal choice of virtues and morality?
The Stoics were what modern day philosophers would call “compatibilists” — they believed that free will makes no sense without determinism.
For example, imagine if your desires didn’t determine your actions. You want to drink a beer, and instead you cluck like a chicken! Free will without determinism means that our wants are disconnected from our actions. That sounds neither realistic nor desirable. Our desires should determine our actions. And how the world actually is should determine our beliefs.
Determinism is related to personal choice because our actions can cause us to take future actions: they make things easier. If you get angry, you’re more likely to be angrier over time. If you’re kind, you’re more likely to be kind over time. If there’s no determinism, you can’t reliably become a better person. Virtue would not be teachable and the Socratic-Stoic project to be a virtuous, moral person would be incorrect and impotent.
So I’d think that determinism is not only not a problem, it’s necessary for morality and virtue.
How do you combine Stoicism and Buddhism? What do these teachings have in common that you use for yourself? Marcus Aurelius wrote in Book 3.6 that if one finds something better than prudence, wisdom, courage, and temperance, one should choose that one. Doesn’t this mean that we shouldn’t combine different teachings?
How do I combine Stoicism and Buddhism? Badly. 🙂
Actually, I have a method, but I don’t recommend combining things because it makes it harder to choose how to practice depending on what’s going on in your life.
How I combine the two would take a long essay for me to explain, but here are the key aspects of how I combine them:
- Stoicism almost completely replaces the sila portion of the Eightfold Noble Path
- This is because the ethical acts the Buddha recommends are somewhat sparse and not nearly as fleshed out as the Stoics’ ethics
- Also, Buddhism has a hard time justifying going out into the world to make it a better place. It’s much more Epicurean, where to make progress they suggest hiding yourself away from the world
- The first foundation of mindfulness in Buddhism serves as an excellent starting point for better practicing The Discipline of Assent
- I find that if I focus on the body while going about my day, I’m much more likely to be able to catch (and therefore analyze) my impressions
- Buddhist psychology is much more accurate that Stoic psychology in my view
- However, while my practice Buddhist practice is firmly Theravadin, I reject the goal of early Buddhism and feel more sympathy toward the Stoic-style Bodhisattva goal of the Mahayana: I’d prefer to trade mental tranquility for trying to make the world at least a little bit better if I’m able and capable.
Overall, I spend more time doing Buddhist practices than Stoic practices. However, when it comes to political action and being a kinder, better person, Stoicism plays a larger role.
Finally, I’m afraid I disagree with your interpretation of Marcus’s 3.6. Remember the context of the Meditations: they are journal entries to himself trying to remind himself of Stoic principles he forgot while out in the field. In 3.6, it seems like Marcus found himself valuing something else besides the virtues. Maybe he got angry. Maybe he was miserable because he was uncomfortable. 3.6 looks to me to be a reminder to himself that he should put virtue over these things. But–in typical fashion–Marcus is being very kind to himself. He knows that Stoicism is a philosophy, not a religion, and he adopted it for specific reasons. In 3.6, he gently allows himself to go pursue comfort (or anger, or whatever else) if it really is a good. In fact, he should if it’s better than virtue! But is it? He then asks himself to examine what he was pursuing and if he finds it cheap or trivial compared to virtue, he should go back to virtue. In short: 3.6 is a gentle debate with himself, not a demand to the reader of his private journal not to combine philosophies.
Keep in mind that many of the Stoics borrowed heavily from other philosophies. Seneca talks fondly on occasion about aspects of Epicureanism. The Middle Stoa of Posidonius and Panaetius put a lot of effort into to harmonize Stoicism with other philosophies of the time. And–importantly– Stoicism itself was created through Zeno of Citium combining at least three philosophies: Cynicism, Megarianism, and Platonism. And some key Stoic ideas were also borrowed from others: the importance of the fire element from Heraclitus, the essential aspect of Stoic psychology call “preconceptions” (prolepseis) from the Epicureans, and even quintessential supposedly Stoic exercises like premediatio malorum seem to be borrowed from the Cyrenaics!
So I think there’s a lot of evidence to suggest the Stoics were not averse to borrowing from other philosophies.
Do you have a Stoic book club? How do you run it?
Yes! It’s online and anyone can join. You can see when we hold our meetings here: https://www.meetup.com/New-York-City-Stoics/ And you can see what we’ve read in the past here.
For the past several years, I’ve had a theme to tie things together. Last year’s theme was “alternatives to Stoicism”, and we covered the ancient schools that competed with the Stoics. This year’s theme is “Stoicism in the academic literature” where we’re reading academic papers on Stoicism and focusing on what practical takeaways we can get out of them.
If you were a Ukrainian publisher, what books on Stoicism would you promote? Which ones do you think deserve attention in 2024?
Stoicism and the Art of Happiness by Donald Robertson, which provides a great overview of Stoicism with a nice infusion of modern cognitive-behavioral psychology.
Stoic Warriors by Nancy Sherman, which goes over the relationship between Stoicism and the military
The Practicing Stoic by Ward Farnsworth, which is a very nicely organized selection of ancient texts organized by theme and ideas.
Seneca wrote in Letter 1 that time is the most important thing we have. This is a fundamental thing in Stoicism. How do you organize your time? How do you plan your day, week, and month? What goals do you set for yourself if Stoicism involves focusing only on the present moment?
I’m not great with time organization, but I do some things to organize it.
Right now, I start every work day by putting what I will do for the day into time blocks on my calendar and try to respect those blocks. I also designate each time block as “deep” (where I work for a long stretch on something that’s a hard project that requires a lot of thought) or “shallow” (things like meetings, quick chats, checking email), etc.
I also have set times where I go to the gym, meditate, or read. If I do these things the same time every day (or at least similar times), I’m more likely to do them.
I also try to have specific times set to myself. I try to keep weekends free to do whatever I want in an unstructured way besides basic household chores.
I don’t usually plan beyond the week, though.
Stoicism is not just about focusing on the present moment; it suggests looking at your thoughts and realizing deeply that the present moment is the only thing that you can have some control over. So I don’t have a problem setting goals. However, my goals are flexible and based on the problems I’m currently facing. And those problems change over time.
What are your hobbies besides Stoicism and Buddhism? What do you do besides writing books? What kind of books do you like to read besides philosophy? Who is your favorite author? What would you recommend for people from Ukraine to read during the war?
My hobbies include cinema, dancing (mostly swing dancing), doing things with friends, taking in cultural events and concerts, and travelling. I also am politically active, trying to get a bill passed in New York State. Finally, I work remotely so I try to work in a different country for a month or two every year. This year I plan to work from Romania and Moldova.
I am trained as a pharmacist, and my main job is with Examine.com, where I spend reading and analyzing scientific literature about nutrition and supplementation. I also do consulting for a company that runs rapid psychological studies and disseminates mostly free tools and information. Right now I am working on trying to see if there are different kinds of anxiety that may benefit from different therapies.
Outside of philosophy, I like to read nonfiction books involving science, math, and history. I also read some fiction, which is usually literary fiction. The last fiction book I read was The Passenger/Stella Maris by Cormac McCarthy. The next book on my list is Righteous Victims by Benny Morris, about the origins of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
I can’t say I have a favorite author. There are too many talented ones!
And I’m afraid I can’t recommend a single book for people from Ukraine. It would depend on the person and what their needs are!
How old were you when you started to get interested in Stoicism? When did you write your first article? When did you decide to become a book author and how did it happen? Do you remember the first book on Stoicism that you read?
I started to get interested in Stoicism in my early 30s.
If I recall correctly, my first Stoic article was this one for Modern Stoicism.
I never decided to become a book author: it happened by accident! Massimo Pigliucci came to one of my meetups and we started collaborating, running once-a-year Stoic Camps in New York. From working on those camps, we had a big pile of Stoic exercises we got from the ancient Stoic literature, and he suggested we write a book on it. So we did!
The first Stoic I ever read was Letters from a Stoic which are select letters from Seneca. However, I read it as part of a course in ancient Greece in college when I was 18, and it didn’t really resonate with me. The first book that set me off on my Stoic journey was around 10 years later, and that was William Irvine’s A Guide to the Good Life. I now disagree with a lot of what’s in that book, but it’s very well written and a good on-ramp to Stoic practice.
While reading your book “A Handbook for New Stoics: How to Thrive in a World Out of Your Control—52 Week-by-Week Lessons” (in Ukrainian translation), I found some inaccuracies.
In the Ukrainian translation of your book, there are similar phrases:
- a) According to the Stoics, it is more important to develop compassion than empathy.
- b) You should not wish for your partner to love you, you can strive to be the person you want to be loved.
- c) When your desires and aversions are “in accordance with nature” (i.e. with what you fully control), you are guaranteed not to be unhappy.
These phrases raise several questions for me:
- Do practicing Stoics really have to feel compassion for anyone? As far as I know, the Stoics condemned compassion as a passionate and base state of mind, because if someone is suffering (for example, drowning), it is foolish to sympathize with them (drown with them), instead of helping them reasonably. In case of need, help is a conscious choice, not compassion.
- As I understand it, love is considered a vice in Stoicism that causes lust. Is there a balance between love that can prevent a practicing Stoic from falling into vice and becoming selfish?
- The discipline of desires includes your attitude towards human nature. But we cannot control our own nature as a whole, but only improve ourselves. In that case, what does it mean to live in complete harmony with nature (Stoic physics)?
It depends on what you mean by “compassion”. If you mean feeling upset when someone’s upset, then I’d agree: the Stoics would not recommend this. However, if you mean sympathizing for others’ point of view cognitively, then it can be important sometimes as an exercise. For example many of the suggestions Marcus tells himself in Mediations 11.18 and Massimo and I cover in Week 25’s exercise can be seen as exercises in compassion. And if by “compassion” you mean caring about others’ welfare, then it’s essential. So I think the word “compassion” is a bit slippery, but once we clarify what we mean, we’re probably in agreement.
- “Love” is a slippery word, too. You’re correct that some forms of love are a passion that should be avoided (for instance, see Diogenes Laertius VII.113). But there are also good forms of love (for example, see Diogenes Laertius VII.130). The good form of love is defined as “an effort toward friendliness due to visible beaty appearing, tis sole end being friendship, not bodily enjoyment.” Stoics would not say you can balance these two senses: that would be a more Aristotelian view. Instead, the Stoics would say to avoid aspects of love that lead to using the other person for enjoyment or pleasure, and have your relationship aim toward the end goal of friendship. Of course, sex will play a role for romantic love, but using someone just for that purpose is the problem. For then you’re aiming more for pleasure than friendship.
- To live in complete harmony with nature means:
–Accepting physical nature: understand how the world works, and accept that the universe will act in the ways it sees fit, not how you see fit. Why wish for things to be other than they are since everything is an opportunity to practice virtue!
–Accepting human nature: what makes humans unique is the way we socialize and the way we think. Thus, getting better at working with and helping others and getting better at thinking clearly and well are the main aims of a Stoic
–Accepting personal nature: there are lots of ways to be virtuous, so you should play to your own strengths. Not everyone is suitable for every role. Look at your own strengths and try to be virtuous in a way you’re particularly good at.
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